The underlying matter of the Wikipedia situation last month, as brought back to me when Paul himself contacted me yesterday, was not a simple matter of spammers going off and retaliating, as they had done when TPL formed out of a coup on PKMN.NET. Rather, it was about the Pokémon Community's past, one that many members have tried to hold on to in the midst of what seems to be the new administration.
If you look at the Pokémon Community forum index, you'll notice that there is a board called 'Pokémon Community Reference Library'. (Of course, you can also get there by clicking here.) This library actually is an archive of the old Pokémon Community board with most posts as of the migration still intact. (The board was commuted to SMF for archival purposes as, from what an administrator tells me, it was impossible to transfer a licence to the new board and leave the old vBulletin board up.) Here, according to conversations I attended with people that have become disgruntled in the face of the current administration, was what was often referred to as the 'soul' of PC — back then, they say, there was an administration that respected others on their time at the board. Indeed, the fact that more than 1,000 members were immediately shunted from this old board to the current vBulletin one (and a look at the member roster will match the ID numbers of the members there to the numbers on the new board, creating the illusion that the accounts were transposed) has caused a massive rift between the members shunted in to the ones that have just arrived.
Seeing as I joined in September 2005 (two years after the migration) and have no real experience with the old board, I can't really judge on how that board was; rather, I've had to interview mods and old members to get a view of it. But Paul was a remnant of the old board and views the administration as a shadow of its former self. Shinin, with whom the administration had a war about the Wikipedia article (and recently caught being Zone on PC), called the mods 'n00bish'. Even Kahoshi, who joined in May 2004 under Suzu (there were no name changes allowed then), was enamoured by the old life and eventually resigned after Kura was promoted to moderator on the Daily Chit Chat merely because she couldn't cope with the current administration what with Chairman Kaga on indefinite leave, so Kura got control of the Other Chat area in her place. With that being said, this distinction between an 'old' and 'new' PC is awful to say the least. These people don't change. They merely have carried on about how good the old PC had been and how incompetent the moderators today supposedly are.
I myself remember when Super Cheats went through the stage. Weeks after the forums opened, it came under attack by Gaming Update members — as it turned out, there had been a forum on the site before, as well as on PSXGamer (which was the most active out of the lot), and one on Gaming Update. The Super Cheats board in that day merged with the other forums and eventually became the Gaming Update board. As a result, PSXGamer's clientele has been sourly low, and when Super Cheats acquired forums once more it was regarded as a hotbed for immature spammers, which prophetically started to develop after the attacks stopped. Since then, we've had mod fights and even a massive dirt bomb shower by Ilovemissyelliott and Bleepman, both of which carried out the attack using Bleepland as a base after Dave criticised their administration and their comments on Super Cheats over there.
Here's something to chew on: Does it really matter how the forums used to be run? This is today, not yesterday; unless you manage it civilly, you won't restore anything. Plus which, you'll have to cope with anyone who becomes mod or is promoted once the years wear on. Anyone who is clinging on to the old PC needs to grow up and adapt or leave. While this is defence for Jeroen against Imperial Dragon, unthinkable in the past, it's also a little message I have for Paul and Shinin themselves.
Update: Kahoshi has been removed as the focus of this article due to a contradiction of conveyed opinion here.
20 comments:
Oh... I don't know. I suppose, in light of what I've said [basically the same thing] to Dakota [this would be around last October... time flies. o_o], this would make me somewhat of a hypocrite, but the older PC [I've never been at the old PC bar the archive], the one Paige spoke of herself [after Summer o4. I joined in September o4], was a lot more fun than the PC we have today. It's not the staff; I think it's more of the people that used to come that don't make time for PC anymore, or were banned, or whatever. I miss the older PC. I guess the difference between people like Dakota and myself, though, would be that I'm still at PC trying to adapt, whereas he wasn't flexible enough to. -shrug-
I don't think is matters about how a forum is ran, as long as there's not alot of chaos.
I didn't really have much to say about what else you had to say. Sorry.. *First time posting comment.* ^^;
I'll try to look at this more of yours!
-CH
It's unfair to generalize the staff like so. They *do* try and if members choose only to reminisce after such inevitable thing [change], then nothing will get accomplished except multiplying animosity/ignorance, on both sides.
I wasn't hear during the 'old PC,' so I'm not too aware of the situation, but I wish there was some civil way everyone could get along, whether old or new. ._.
The thing is that you may be interviewing the wrong people, because Paul may be a little bit untrustworthy. Mind you that most veterans consider the old PC as the zenith of PC because of the enormous amount of freedom and the fact that there aren't as much rules or so.
I joined Pokecommunity on December 2002, and it was a very friendly site in contrast to the elitist SPPf. This is why I came to recognize Pokecommunity as one of the better forums out there because of the user friendly moderators, ranging from memorable artists, to amusing super moderators, and not to mention the memorable members who are much more frequent and loyal to Pokecommunity rather than the "fad" members of the PC now (i.e. Cybex Mewtwo, Eliana, etc.)
In my opinion, PC did change in order to survive and to be able to bear the enormous amount of new members and "n00bs" flocking in. Thus, PC became a lot stricter and much alike SPPf, if you may. However, I still adhere to PC although most of my original friends are long gone. This is because I somehow feel a bit of the old PC in the new one. And it doesn't matter which one's the best or so... but if you've seen it all, I'm sure you'll understand. And although most of my interest in Pokemon have either diminished or have completely disappeared, I still go to PC, ocassionally post an interesting post or two...
Being one that was a member (as well as Staff) on both the new and old PC I must say that there is a big difference in both forums.
To me the old PC was more fun, we were more close, everyone knew each other, we didn't have as many rules and all that. I think the reason why most old PC members say they like the old PC better is because of the rules.
Now ones that goes off and says "The old PC was better, the new one has went to HELL!!!" and get themselves banned is stupid. They blame the Staff for this and that but what they don't understand is it's the n00bs to blame. Because we wouldn't have all the rules we got if we didn't have so many n00bs. On the old PC we didn't have so many n00bs so we didn't need all the rules. But once the new PC came around and n00bs filled up PC that's when we had to put an iron fist on them and add all the rules.
Yes I do like the old PC better, yes some people are crazy enough to live in the old PC, but at least some of us know when to move on from the old PC. Ones like me had to change and adapt to the way PC is now, some of them old members want to change the new PC to how the old PC was, and it just isn't going to happen.
VERY mature, Paul.
It's just a Pokemon forum. Get over it. I know I have.
Heh, I love how people still talk about me. It makes me feel important.
But yeah, the reason for the decline of PC was the staff, no question. Like it says in the bible, a divided kingdom cannot stand. In old PC, all the staff were friends. So much conflict and e-drama between the new staffers caused the authority to crumble and turn it into the crap fest it is today. Cool beans.
~D
Your dismissal from the staff tells you nothing from the time of dismissal forward, D. Can it.
You seriously think I still care about getting demodded. Let's count how many times I've brought up being demodded in any of our debates. 0. Let's count how many times you guys use it as a lame excuse as to why I keep arguing with you all. 28320257508975.
It sounds like Jakes in denial. Like it or not, I'm a monumental figure in PC's past history. Take it take it take it. It's all good though, it's not like Jake has admitted his or PC's faults ever before. I really stopped caring about PC so long ago because the whole notion of it is just so incredibly dumb. Dumb admins, dumb mods, everyone's just dumb. Contradicting themselves and each other, and sticking up for something they think is worth sticking up for. A pokemon message board where popularity and noobish behavior rule over everything, and unliked opinions are banned. I'll stick to giving my points via whatever and when I'm bored enough to. I still enjoying debating with the dumb people.
~D
Having a look at staff as a member yourself before, but since demotion, I'm not stating you're caring about it. I'm saying that you cannot assume how the staff continues to run and such as you're not one yourself anymore.
This is true. But I refuse to believe that PC has suddenly changed for the better and that everything is dandy now since I was banned. Paige left, Kaga practically left, people (vets) got demodded and banned left and right. Even if I haven't been there the past month, what I say still holds true because PC is still in a rut and it's still the staff's fault.
And yet, out of the awareness you should have that members could do something about it, quite frankly they aren't. All this idiotic backchat of the staff helps no one at all and people have suddenly become afraid of posting opinion even when the
"opinions" they look at were breaking rules or directed at other members. It doesn't work at all.
So the staff is saying it's the members fault (because there's no chance in hell they'd blame themselves) and the members are saying it's the staff fault. Let's look at this in a political way. If a group fails, the leader is to blame because of poor leadership. If the leader blames the group, the leader is still to blame anyway. The staff is the reason PC is in a rut.
You can't blame members, at all. It's ridiculous. You want 3000 active members to just change everything for the better before 10 whiny, pissy, ego-centric staff change? If you guys keep on scapegoating, then for SURE nothing will change.
Hmm...well I did check the old PC out. It looked nice, I just need to check out all the posts and stuff. I joined in September 29th, 2004. I joined because I knew this forum was more fun than SPPf. I was a little angry at them(my posts get ignored, picked on, and then I couldn't post any pictures in the clubs). I think everyone is doing a great job! So I think the New PC is A-Okay. ^^ I am going to be there for a while. I hope I will make it in three years. Thanks for everything guys!
There's one error in your thing: I didn't have anything to do with the Wikipedia thing. I never even heard of it until your earlier post about banned members or whatever it was about. If I remember correcly, it was Digital Phoenix who did that.
I never said it was you who created it. I was referencing the debate you had on my comments area.
"Shinin, with whom the administration had a war on the Wikipedia article (and recently caught being Zone there)"
You didn't say I created it, but you did say that I was in it.
I should have made it clearer there: a war 'about' the article.
I never had a war about the article either. I never even knew about it until I saw your post "PC on Wikipedia," which was only a small time before my last account was banned.
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